Pleased to see

From my point of view the discussion seems rather parochial.  I'm interested in seeing scientists/engineers solve unanswered questions and improve our understanding of the physical world.  Their country of origin and work is irrelevant.

Today, unlike during the time of Newton and Galileo, the taxpaying public pays scientists' salaries (in most cases) and we deserve to get the best value for our money. Also, unlike during those golden times, the competition is now the entire world instead of a few European city states.

The problem with the university system is that faculty take that money for granted whether they deliver true value for it or not.   For a country that can barely pay its governmental debts, academicians in Italy are doing quite well (compare with, say, Niger).   

Italian universities do have a reputation for being fiefdoms of well connected academics.  But I don't know enough about them to judge whether that's perception or reality.  I know even less about British universities.

-- Biswajit

Dear Alan

 while I am thinking about your original questions, I do have answered a very important one.  The role of the church.  Well, if you see my latest comment, I show by way of simple calculation of data available to everybody (almost), that the biggest increase in funding in Italian Universities was given to the former President of Senate,Marcello Pera, who is famous for having written a book with the then Cardinal, now Pope, Ratzinger.

Can you remind me please the other questions now?

Michele Ciavarella, Politecnico di BARI - Italy, Rector's delegate.
http://poliba.academia.edu/micheleciavarella

Yes, Alan, answering your last question, the previous Government (Berlusconi) had Gelmini as Minister, and Profumo was Rector of Politecnico di Torino.   Later, Gelmini nominated Profumo as President of CNR, and even later, the new Government of Mario Monti Profumo as Minister.   Things have not changed much.

When the classification appeared in 2009, nothing was revealed at first, except the final result in the newspaper La Stampa, which is from Torino (remember, Profumo was Rector in Torino).

Then, Bocconi University (remember, the Gelmini reform is inspired by key professor of Bocconi University) online journal explained how the ranking was made .  Since then, despite many criticisms over the funny way things are evaluated (if you pass all students, even if they are stupid, you probably win the classification!), and despite the rules are always changed last minute, a posteriori, and without any consensus, things have changed very little.

The key players remain strong powers in Italy:  Bocconi, Profumo, Trento, ....

And now they finally are thinking of setting up something like RAE, but this should be done by Agency ANVUR.  However, the Parliament has put ANVUR firmly within the grip of Ministry, i.e. of Profumo....

Do you have any hope to compare Uk with Italy?  I think it is much easier to start from comparison Ukraine - Italy.  In Ukraine, do you know the most virtuous Rector?

See this.  He is an oligarch who thinks he is Elvis Presley, and takes his University as his property as his chain of restaurants.   See my blog for a funny video of his performances .   All these beautiful student ladies.... It remains me of my former Prime Minister in fact.

Michele Ciavarella, Politecnico di BARI - Italy, Rector's delegate.
http://poliba.academia.edu/micheleciavarella

I think I agree that the comparison Italy vs UK cannot be made.

This is in contrast to the apparent slogans made by people near the Berlusconi government (Andrea Ichino, Alesina, Giavazzi, and Schiesaro) who pretend and propagand that their Gelmini Reform Law 240/2010 is meritocratic, and inspired to UK and USA models.

On Minister Profumo, if we were closer to UK and USA, we would have a really highly cited scientist as Minister.  This happened with Obama, who has a Nobel Price winner as Minister, and happens in UK.

In Italy, we do have a highly cited scientist who was for the first time also Minister, not of University, and in the Prodi Government.   His name is Luigi Nicolais, and  he is the founder of a composite  materials school in Italy which is renowned in the world.

The problem with this, and probably with Monti government, is that Nicolais, despite much more qualified scientifically than Profumo, is from the South.  And this is indigestible to the present powers.

Nicolais, having been also Minister of Public function, would be also a lot better to solve the contrasts who are about to explore with Profumo, and that Profumo himself fires, since he has already used Authority for ANTI-TRUST to trying desperately to keep his job also as President of National Research Council, and he has used also Administrative Court (TAR) to go against his own alma mater Politecnico di TORINO, of which he was Rector until very recently!    In other words, he is figthing against his own decisions taken when he was Rector!

Something to ask Freud about.

So, in the end I think Alan that you are right. We suffer in the South of discrimination, which comes at least from 150 years ago. It is called QUESTIONE MERIDIONALE (Southern question), meaning not even Italian Unification is still digested, let alone a united Europe!!!!

We should instead build a federation of Universities of the South, or a Politechnic of the South, to compete with the two Politecnico di Milano and di Torino.

Don't forget that secessionist movements like Lega NORD, who want to split Italy, have dominated in the Berlusconi  
government for a long time, and   reached increadible power.  And use propaganda.  The truth is that the North has less culture, perhaps a little more propensity for manual activities.

Secession movements

The Italian unification process was generally popular with
contemporary people living in the Italian peninsula, especially with
regard to the end to Austrian rule. Nevertheless, dissenters were
present in the 19th century (in particular, the rulers of the annexed
states), and regionalist sympathies continue to the present day. There
are two chief secession movements, (that in the past reached less than
5% of the national electoral votes and currently in the last 2008
national election reached about 10% nationwide and 20% in the north)
represented by active political parties: one in the North (Lega Nord), and one in the South (M.I.S.).
This southern secession movement was mainly the result of peasants
revolting against the new government. The former has elected several
representatives to the national parliament.

The Veneto region (corresponding to the central portion of what was
the Most Serene Republic of Venice) has an especially strong and growing
feeling toward autonomy/independence. In the latest elections Lega Nord
(North League) reached 28.4%, and PDL reached 29.3([1]).
It should be noticed that even leading representatives of PDL show
increasing feeling toward autonomy (not independence) of Veneto within
an Italian unitary frame ([2]).

The Italian province of South Tyrol had a strong secession movement, headed by the German-speaking majority in the region, for unification with Austria.
The movement was strongest after the Second World War. Secessionist
parties still exist, but the secessionist movement has been mostly
pacified by the granting of substantial autonomy by the Italian
government.

Michele Ciavarella, Politecnico di BARI - Italy, Rector's delegate.
http://poliba.academia.edu/micheleciavarella